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If you have both a dog and cat, Zazie and Kristi chat about how to ensure they have a friendly relationship.

By Zazie Todd, PhD

Zazie and Kristi talk about how to help dogs and cats to be friends with each other, and why it all starts with thinking about the cat’s feeling of safety.

Watch Episode 53 on Youtube or below, listen wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify) or below, or check back for the transcript (coming soon!). 

How to help dogs and cats to be friends

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We talk about:

•     the need to manage introductions between dogs and cats
•     what that means from the dog’s perspective, and the cat’s perspective
•     the importance of letting them vote with their feet
•     the need for safe spaces, and how to make safe spaces for a cat
•     the idea of training the dog to be safe around cats
•     how to keep the peace at mealtimes
•     placement of the cat’s resources
•     whether dogs are ever scared of cats
•     how some dogs cannot be trusted to live with a cat

The books we recommend in this episode are:

    Dog Affirmations: An Illustrated Journey Through Your Dog’s Thoughts by Andrea Cáceres

    The Little Old Lady Who Broke All the Rules: A Novel by Catharina Ingelman-Sundberg

Previous episodes mentioned in the show:

For more on how to set your house up for your cat, check out Zazie’s book Purr: The Science of Making Your Cat Happy, which is available wherever books are sold. 

Highlights of the conversation about dogs and cats

Z: Hey, Kristi. We both have experience of households with both dogs and cats in them, don’t we?

K: We certainly do. I’ve got a cat on my lap and my lap dogs are behind me,

Z: which is very cool, and mine are not in the room with me. But I also have a dog and a cat these days.

And I actually think it can be very beneficial for cats and dogs to be in the same home. I feel like so long as they get on with each other, actually they can be providing some kind of social enrichment for each other.

You know, they, they like to hang out together, then that’s really good for them.

But of course, it doesn’t always work out well. I actually read an interesting research study not that long ago in which they said that for dogs, having another dog in the house helps them to live a longer life, or dogs who have another dog in the house live a longer life.

And that also applies if they have another cat in the house as well. But they didn’t have corresponding figures for cats. So I don’t know what it’s like for another cat being in the home, but I thought that was really interest.

So it can be a really positive thing. And of course, everyone always hopes it will be a really positive thing. But then unfortunately, lots of people can end up having issues with it.

And that’s one of the reasons we’re talking about this topic, because people have emailed and said, you know, they’re having issues with their cat or their dog and they would like some suggestions for things to do.

And I guess it starts with introductions, doesn’t it?

K: It does. And I think there’s a mythology that cats and dogs will be like snuggling up together in a bed and perfect friends. And I think, you know, it’s almost like a cartoon character mythology and it just.

Sure, I think that happens occasionally. I’ve seen the pictures go by, but I don’t think that’s the case for most cats and dogs. And I think. So we need to really take a step back and learn what does a happy cat, especially cats, I think is, you know, like you say, that’s.

Those are the ones that we really need to. We really need to be protective towards their emotional state and their safety in these situations. But I think what does a happy cat in a dog cat household actually look like?

And maybe we need to sort of revise that and renew that and not just be like, oh, but in the cartoons.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And that’s a really good point because I think everybody wants them to snuggle up together and it would be so cute if they did.

It’s not necessarily going to happen even when they get on well, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not getting unwell. So as an example, this morning after I got up, so the cat stays in the bedroom for most of the morning, or she goes back there quite quickly and she was sleeping on the bed and Pepper went back to the bedroom and found her and kind of laid on the floor.

And he can’t jump on the bed anyway because he’s too small and infirm, but he laid on the floor nearby. So they’re close to each other and they’re not actually snuggled up, but I think they were enjoying each other’s company because he had chosen and gone to the room where she was and she hadn’t moved.

And this has happened actually a few times that we find them near each other. And I think being near each other and getting on well together, together is enough. They don’t have to snuggle.

And it’s good enough that they’re enjoying each other’s company without them having to be all lovey dovey and snuggly all of the time.

K: Yeah, exactly. Perfect.

Z: Yeah.

K: That’s what our laps are for, is for the cats to snuggle.

Z: Very true.

K: You know, we don’t have Timber anymore. He has passed. But he was one who Apricat always, weirdly, because he was such an big, behaviorally big dog,

you know, like stampy, stampy, screamy, screamy. But him and Apricot always had kind of a thing like. And Timber was, you know, probably one of the Only dogs. And Archer is actually a little bit like that too.

Who could go up to Apricat quite comfortably. They could touch noses, you know, and then maybe Apricot might kind of gently slap him around a little bit and Tim would have fun with this and be like, you know, like so.

And to me, that is like that for them. That’s the pinnacle of how close they’re going to get. Timber did not want to be snuggled, you know, neither does Archer.

Apricat wants to snuggle in a way that he will choose, you know, and it’s not going to be with the dog. So I think respecting and understanding what, what works for the particular cats and dogs in the situation is going to be important.

Z: Yes, absolutely. And it’s nice that you mentioned sniffing noses because that’s how cats like to greet other cats. And very often dogs who live with cats will learn that this is the way that the cat would like to be greet.

So if your dog and your cat sniff noses, that in itself is I think, a very good sign that they get on.

And the logo for companion animal psychology is based on my cat Melina and my late dog Bodger sniffing noses to greet each other. So that’s where that came from.

So I guess introductions are the most important.

K: Introductions are a thing, more of a thing than we’d expect, right? With cats and dogs.

Z: Absolutely. And when we say introductions, I think it’s best if you get the cat first. If you know that you want to have a dog and a cat, it’s really better to get the cat first and then introduce the dog.

And it’s probably also going to be better if they are young animals when they get to meet each other, because that will help too.

K: When we talk about introductions, there can be a sense, I believe, from, you know, from, from pet guardians, that if you do an introduction, right, it’s going to go great. If you do an introduction bad, it’s going to go terrible. Like it’s this big thing.

That’s not what we mean. You wait. If, if a cat does not like dogs and is, is irreparably scared of dogs, a good introduction is not going to save that dynamic, you know, and also if, if they’re like, if both of them are chill and happy and have, you know,

other positive experience, a bad introduction may not derail that. So it’s not the be all and end all. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not something that we can manage to make it go as good as possible to help set this foundation I think that’s

Z: a really good way of putting it. And it is an important thing to. To try and get right and going to go too fast, because even what you think is slow is not slow enough from your cats and dogs perspective.

So there is actually some research that shows that when people do it slowly, they take introduction slowly. It does tend to lead to a better relationship between the dog and the cat later on.

And when people decide that they’re just going to leave the animals to it, let them sort it out, that doesn’t tend to go as well. And it’s less likely to result in a dog and a cat who actually get on with each other.

So it is important to take it slowly, and that means not just letting them loose together right at the beginning.

So we can use scent.

Scent is really important to cats. So you can use things like the smell of the dog and you can take them to the cat and give the cat the choice of interacting with them or not.

So do not take something that smells as the dog and rub it on the cat to make the cat smell like the dog, because that will be awful for the cat and they will hate it, and that will have the opposite effect to what you intend.

But if you take something like a dog bed or just a blanket, blanket that the dog has been lying on and put it in a room where the cat is, and the cat has the choice of interacting with it, and you can, if you like, give them treats if they come and interact with it too.

So to try and make it a positive experience or just give them treats for being in the same room as it, depending on your cat, that can help too.

So that even before the cat actually meets the dog, they’re going to feel like they’ve to some extent come to get to know them.

K: It’s interesting how, you know and I know we talked about this in a previous podcast, how everyone, I think, kind of has a good sense that dogs are very into smell. Like they, you know, like, smell is super important to dogs, but the fact that smell is also really important to cats,

I think is something that has, like, less, you know, it, it’s less made out there into the world. So it’s. It’s interesting to sort of hear about and talk about.

And it’s also something that we can manipulate, as, you know, we can manipulate in ways that are helpful for dogs and cats.

Z: Yeah. And of course, we can do it the other way around. So we can take the cat’s bed and give it to the dog and let the dog Have a good sniff of it beforehand, too.

But I think it’s the cat that it’s most important for, because the cat is the one whose comfort we have to pay most attention to in order to make this relationship work.

The dog is. It’s easier for the dog, whereas it’s harder for the cat, because cats are prey animals, and they can be killed or eaten or attacked by dogs. So it can be a bit more scary for them.

And we really need to put all of our efforts into making. Making the cat feel as comfortable as possible in the environment with the dog.

So another part of a slow introduction. After you. You know that they’re happy with the smell.

You know, they. They are reacting in a relaxed way when they’re smelling something. They’re not having that cartoon cat fur standing on end like a Halloween cat reaction. That would be very bad.

You need to go at the cat’s pace. So when they seem happy, then you could maybe start with giving them some sight of the dog in a situation where the dog is not doing anything interesting, not moving around. So maybe they’ll be asleep, or maybe they’ll have someone distracting them from the cat.

And you can also have like, a one toy ready or something ready to help distract the cat from the dog. And it’s not actually possible for them to meet. So you’ve got a pet gate in the way, or a door is only just partly ajar, and you’re not gonna let the cat through something like that.

And then if that’s going okay, then you can kind of move on a bit and give them a bit more sight of each other and ultimately let them actually meet each other and supervise all of those early interactions.

And don’t necessarily leave the cat alone with the dog. And actually, we still don’t leave the cat alone with the dog.

If we’re going out, we make sure the cat is in one side of the house and the dog is in the other side of the house. We still separate them.

We probably don’t need to, but I actually feel that we need to for Pepper’s safety as much as Melina’s, because he’s gone blind now, and she could come up to him and he wouldn’t know and it could frighten him.

So I think it’s just better for them if it’s that way around.

Some people would think that’s a bit too conservative, but it’s going to depend on your cat and your dog and what they prefer and how well they get on, for sure.

K: And I think something to Keep in mind is we’re having this conversation about then allowing the cat to sort of maybe see the dog, you know, through a pet gate. That doesn’t mean picking up your cat and carrying your cat to look at the dog. 

That, that. And I think Jean Donaldson uses this, this phrase, let them vote with their feet. And that means allow them to come in walking on their own. You know, like, is this something that the cat is, is consenting with their own behavior to sort of undertake this sortie to check out the dog?

Yeah, we don’t want to do any kind, any, you know, you just imagine the person with like, no, it’s okay, it’s okay. It’s not okay.

If the cat, the cat is clearly telling you, like, this is not okay. Listen to.

Z: Yeah, yes. Choice is really important.

And I think another thing that sometimes I hear dog trainers suggest, and it’s a very well meaning suggestion, and it works from the dog’s perspective, but not from the cat’s perspective, is the idea of putting the cat in a crate and letting the dog sniff the crate so the cat is actually physically safe because they’re in their carrier and the dog can’t get at them.

And maybe also they can kind of hide, depending on the carrier, but hopefully it’s,

you know, the cat has a carrier that there are holes in for air, but they can kind of hide in the base of it, but they’re still gonna sense this dog coming and sniffing the carrier and they haven’t got the option to get away.

They can’t choose to leave.

So from the dog’s perspective, yes, it’s okay, but from a feeling of safety perspective, it’s not okay for the cat, even though physically they are actually safe.

So that choice is really, really important.

K: Yeah, absolutely. Little cats stuck in the crate.

Z: Oh.

K: Previously in another podcast, we were talking about training cats to enjoy their crates and I just can’t help but go, oh, God. That’s a way to make a cat really not like their crate.

Z: Yes. If you stick them in their carrier and let a dog come up, which unfortunately is something that often happens to cats in the waiting room at the vet.

And sometimes the person with the dog can’t help it. Like,

we’ve had people with a big dog and the dog kind of drags the person over and they start sniffing the crate with Melina in it, and she’s not very happy about it and she’s used to dogs and she’s used to big dogs because we used to have big dogs.

But even so, I think it’s not ideal that that can happen. And I shouldn’t be having to put my foot out to block someone else’s dog from coming up to the carrier.

And you can understand why the dog is interested. But even if the dog is being friendly, it’s not a nice experience for the cat. So you have to think about it from both perspectives and that the cat is most important.

K: In this case of introducing dogs and cats, the idea that protect the cat, the cat, the cat’s emotional well being is more. Is the important thing. If, if you have that as your like, guiding principle of introductions, it will help.

Z: Yes, it will. It will. And it will also help you think about the dog’s behavior as well. Because some dogs are going to be friendly to cats, but very excited.

And some dogs will play with cats, but they may not be good. They may be too big and bouncy or excitable.

And so you can think about training your dog perhaps to pay less attention to the cat and certainly not to chase the cat because that would be a horrid experience for the cat.

So some of that is training that you could do with your dog beforehand. You can make sure that your dog is going to come when you call them.

If you’re out on walks and you see cats, you can encourage your dog to be looking at you instead and teach them to look at you in the presence of an exciting cat, for example.

So those are things that you can do before you get the cat and certainly in a room when that the cat is not in. So that you get some practice at that, separate from the cat.

And help to teach the dog to behave nicely around the cat and respectfully around the cat.

K: Yeah, absolutely. I think doing sort of impulse control type behavior. So a down stay or a sit or resting comfortably, you know, where something quite exciting is going on, is going to be helpful. Helpful for this.

I also think satiation, like just allowing enough time to pass so that the dog gets a little bit bored. Like most dogs. Or many dogs will find cats to be a little bit boring if they get enough exposure to them, you know.

So we want to give the cat the comfort to sort of interact around the dog and allow the dog to get a little bit like, okay, so maybe this isn’t quite as exciting as I hoped.

When I saw that there was a critter in my midst, you know.

Z: Yeah, yeah, we used to have Bodger who was a herding dog and he kind of would like to herd the cats. Basically. We had two cats at that point. And he would kind of herd them a little bit,

and so long as they didn’t seem too stressed, it was okay. But he luckily, I mean, he was a very, very clever dog. He would come away from them when called. So so long as we were there, supervising was all right.

And he and Melina especially got on well. But our other cat that we used to have, Harley, liked him too, and again, was good for them to spend time with each other.

Nice, nice enrichment. But I think herding dogs, some of the behaviors that herding dogs have, you might need to make sure that you’ve trained them to apply them appropriately, because not all cats are going to tolerate being herded either. They might not find that very pleasant.

K: Yeah, a lot. I think a lot of natural dog behaviors are not something that cats would definitely choose to interact with.

The snoozing on the couch, perhaps. Yes, yes.

Maybe not.

Z: Yeah, not so much. No.

And that might mean that you have to do some things with your cat separate from the dogs. So if you’re going to get the one toy out to play with your cat, you might need your dog to be in another room, because that’s going to be very exciting for them otherwise, and they might want to come and join in. And you don’t want that. You want that just to be for the cat.

You have to think about how you’re going to feed the animals.

So what will happen, for example, if your dog’s food bowl is on the floor and your cat goes and tries to take some of that food?

Now, with us, it was not ever a problem. The cat got the food, basically.

But for some dogs, they won’t tolerate that. So you have to think about that. And it’s not really very nice for the dog if the cat is coming. And stealing their food for the cat is easy because you can put their food out of reach.

So you can put it on a table or on a shelf or something where there’s no chance of the dog reaching it so at least the cat can eat in peace.

And you have to think about all of the cat’s resources, not just the food, but the water bowl, their toys, their beds,

their litter box. How are they going to access all of these things without a dog getting in the way? That’s really important.

And you do have to think to some extent, what if the cat comes and takes the dog’s bed? Well, probably the dog’s not going to mind, but the cat might mind if the dog is in their bed trying to squeeze into their bed or something like that.

So you have to think about all of their resources and again, focusing on the cat especially how can the cat access all of these things safely?

K: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think we did want to talk about safe spaces and I think like the elevated safe space idea for cats is really important and having so having their, their resources.

Like Apricot has his own little water bowl and his, his food, but he also has resting surfaces, nooks, beds, you know, on certain places away. And he can’t quite jump as high as he used to, but he certainly has areas up that he can and that’s where he, he wants to be.

He likes to sit above. And I think that’ pretty typical of cats. So he gets safety and comfort from those elevated nooks.

Z: Yes. And that’s really important, like the cat tree and lots of spaces where the cat can go where the dog can’t go. So if the cat is feeling bothered by a dog, they’ve got somewhere they can jump up to and get out of the way.

Or sometimes somewhere low down where they can hide, like under the settee or if you pull the settee like an inch or two out from the wall, there might be space for a cat to get in there where the dog can’t go.

So some lower down spaces as well, if they’re suitable only for a small animal, depending of course on the size of your dog. Because for example, I sometimes leave treats in the cat carrier for Melina to find, but I have to make sure that she’s the one who gets them because Peppa has learned that he can stick his head in and see if he can reach. He’s quite, I mean, he’s bigger than the cat, but he can get in there.

So you have to make sure that things that are just for the cat are available just for the cat. Cat. And especially for an older cat, they might not be able to jump as high as you mentioned as they used to.

So also with your dining table just having your chairs pulled out a couple of inches so that your cat can jump via the chair if they need to get to the chair and then onto the table, I think that can be helpful as well.

And so again, it’s thinking about the cat’s feelings, the feelings of safety, so so important as well as the actual safety as well.

K: For sure. Yeah.

So in kind of bad news, the bad news story, we did want to touch on the fact that some dogs just aren’t safe for cats and there isn’t enough training in the world that will make them safe.

And these are you know, dogs who are predatory towards cats. Um, and I know this isn’t something that we see shared on our social media reels amidst all of the beautiful, cute,

you know, animal friends reels, but some dogs do read cats as prey and will kill them. And, and, and that, that isn’t a safe environment for a cat. Obviously it doesn’t.

You can’t, you know, training is never 100% and you can’t sort of expose a cat to that 1 or 2% chance even if you do extensive training that, that this, this dog may kill them when your back is turned.

And dogs are much faster than you think. You know, one of the things that we love about our, our animals is how different they are from us and how we, we get to see little pieces of their predatory sequence.

We were talking about that too in another cat conversation recently.

You also quite predatory. But dogs tend not to be the size of mice. So, so it’s not, this isn’t something that we see the reverse of. So, you know, if you do have a dog that displays predatory behavior to the point of killing a cat,

that dog is, is not you, you know, that, that they just can’t live together in the same house.

Z: Yeah, it’s just not safe at all. And it is something that’s on the individual dog. Although there probably are some breeds that are more likely to be risky for cats.

I think some of the terriers because they’ve been bred to catch and kill, and Siberian huskies perhaps as well,

because they can have quite a strong prey drive. But it’s very much on the individual dog. If you know that your dog is a risk to your cat, then it’s just not safe to have them in the same household.

And it’s important to recognize that even though obviously it can be devastating if you’ve got two animals that you love, but one is just not safe with the other. And if you know that about your dog, then you know not to get, not to go out and get a cat at all.

K: Yeah. And I think it might be useful. I don’t know if we can touch on it a little bit now, but also we may want to just do a separate podcast is if you want both in your life,

sort of how to make decisions about what age should we get. Should we get an adult dog from the pound that has already been exposed to cats and is known to be safe?

Should we get a kitten, which makes sense to get first, but I think maybe just touch on that really quick. But recognize that this is a bigger topic?

Z: Yeah, it is a big topic and I think it’s always hard to be sure, especially for a cat. It’s hard to be sure if they’re going to take to a dog or not.

So if you’re getting a cat and you have a dog, it’s really better to do it in the other order. But you definitely want to make sure you’re looking either for a kitten, because it’s easier for a kitten to get used to a dog, or for an adult cat who is known to be good with dogs and especially is not going to be running away from dogs because you don’t want them to be triggering that.

Any kind of thought of predation, basically.

And if you already have a cat and you’re getting a dog, well, obviously a puppy is one place to start, because you’ve got that chance to socialise them around the cat.

But also you can find an adult dog who is used to living with cats and who is known to be good with cats. And that’s what we did when we got Peppa.

We just waited a long time reading all of the descriptions of the dogs in the local shelter until we found one that said that they were good with cats, good with dogs, and met other, you know, features that we needed.

And we were very, very lucky to get Pepper. And he is amazing with cats. They were absolutely right. He’s very respectful and he just gets out of Melina’s way some of the time,

which sometimes he has to, because she is good with dogs, but she also is very assertive, let’s put it that way, some of the time.

So, yeah, I think it’s very important to think about that. And getting the cat first helps because then the cat is already comfortable in the home and those spaces kind of already belong to the cat when the dog comes in.

And I think that is very helpful.

But it’s also important to think about spaces like we were just talking about, and to think about the introductions, because the risk is that you bring the dog home, the cat is unhappy about it, the cat runs upstairs if you’ve got an upstairs and the cat never comes downstairs again, if things go wrong at the beginning, and it’s not that you can’t undo that, but it’s a lot of work to undo something like that. 

So it is really important to think about it.

You do not want your cat’s first experience of the dog to be the dog starting to chase the cat that’s going to get everything off on the wrong foot. So, yeah, and knowing that an animal has been socialized around the other species early on. It helps a lot and obviously easier with smaller animals.

And some dogs can actually end up being scared of cats.

And so you do have to think about it from the dog’s perspective as well. I know we’ve been emphasizing the cat, but what I have seen happen or heard of happening sometimes is in an early introduction, the dog goes up to the cat being friendly, but the cat is not very happy.

And so the cat goes swipe with their claws out and they get the dog’s nose, and that’s very painful for the dog.

And then the dog might end up being scared of the cat as well. Well, so that is something that you do have to be careful of. And you don’t want either animal to be scared.

I mean, you want both animals to be safe and to feel safe.

K: Yeah, and I think there. There’s also some cases, and like you said, this isn’t something that happens a lot, but there are some dogs that are just sort of, it seems just sort of naturally scared of cats. You know, maybe some dogs just seem to be scared of a lot of new things.

Right.

And if that’s the case, then training can help. You know, we, at this point, I think we’ve talked quite a bit about training scared dogs. And I think we can just say, okay, we. What we have is a scared dog. So we’re going to protect this dog at the same time protecting the cat.

And then we’re going to do some just standard training, you know, desensitization, counter conditioning to see if we can get this dog more comfortable with the cat. And it. It may be. I don’t. I haven’t heard of a case like this where we haven’t had the dog come around.

But I think in many cases, you can definitely use the power ofgood training to help a cat, to help a dog who is a little bit scared or intimidated by a cat for whatever reason to come around and feel comfortable.

You know, we can train dogs, and I know we’ve mentioned this, but I’d like to reiterate, we can train dogs to be better around cats. We have that ability. We have a relatively good knowledge of what cats find comfortable in their, you know, companion dog’s behavior.

And we can help shape dog’s behavior through positive reinforcement training to help them to be a better sort of roommate to a cat. And that not just makes the cat more comfortable, But I think many dogs in my experience really like cats.

They find them super interesting. They like the way they smell. They like, you know, they like watching them. There’s. So I think it. It improves the dog’s life to be able to be around a cat.

And so we can help guide them very gently and comfortably to be like, actually, dog dude, this is what the cat wants you to do. You know what I.

And I think that would be. That is not something that we should avoid talking about. That’s not coercive on our dog’s behavior or anything. It’s not, you know,

it’s helping them, it’s enriching and it’s helping them to get more of what they want, which is super cool.

Z: Yes, I think so. And I think when they get on together, I think it’s lovely and it’s nice for the people in the household too. So I think it’s definitely a very good aim.

And this has just been really a very quick overview of the topics. If there is anything in here that you would like us to get go into detail in a future episode, let us know because we do listen to what people say they would like to hear on the show.

This transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.

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